Yes, There Are Black People in Your “Hunger Games”: The Strange Case of Rue & Cinna
November 3, 2011 118 Comments
Last week the Hunger Games character posters were revealed to all fans.
There were the usual complaints of actors not meeting book loyalist expectations. However, among the usual complaints of “She doesn’t look as young as I thought” or “Where are Effie’s pink curls?” There was a different kind of shock and surprise toward Rue & Cinna.
Rue:
”And most hauntingly, a twelve-year-old girl from District 11. She has dark brown skin and eyes, but other than that, she’s very like Prim in size and demeanor.“―Katniss Everdeen, while watching Rue’s reaping.[src] {The Hunger Games Wiki}
She is 12 years old, with dark brown hair, skin, and “golden brown” eyes. {Wikipedia}
Rue is pretty clearly described as African-American which has been confirmed by director Garry Ross and author Suzanne Collins.
In the books, Katniss is described as being olive-skinned, dark-haired, possibly biracial. Did you discuss with Suzanne the implications of casting a blond, caucasian girl?
Suzanne and I talked about that as well. There are certain things that are very clear in the book. Rue is African-American. Thresh is African-American.
So then, why did comments like these show up on the Hunger Games Facebook when Rue’s poster was posted?
Everything from the innocuous ”She’s not how I pictured her” to “I was all sad and like “she’s black!’”
Seriously? My good nerds, what in the entire fuck?
While it is true that Rue is described maybe only twice in the entire book, she is described as having brown satiny skin that is darker than Katniss’ own tan skin. While it is also true that The Hunger Games are a very quick and absorbing read I don’t find that any of this an excuse to post on Facebook ”Shes Black?”
It makes me wonder if we all read the same book.
How is it, when Rue is so clearly described that fans insist they believed her to be white? White people are considered the norm in society; the default person. It’s as simple as when you hear the words “All-American”, I can say with certainty that you are not picturing a minority person of color. This is white privilege.
I’m a longtime Hunger Games fan and have followed many conversations on the internet concerning the casting of the film. Whenever the conversation comes to Rue there is always (1) person who is surprised to find out Rue is black and (2) another person who is upset that Rue is black. Upset as if they have been tricked or as if something has been stolen from them. Upset as if they now have to reevaluate how they feel about Rue–a character many fans love dearly because of her incredible courage.
“OMG, THERE IS A BLACK PERSON IN MY BOOK!?”
And the one that really kills me is {SPOILER AHEAD–HIGHLIGHT TO READ} “Where’s Prim? Her death is the one that gets to me most.” As if Rue’s death is not even worth this poster; this poster that should belong to Prim (Katniss’ pale, blond sister)
The reaction to Cinna is even more harsh.
Cinna:
Most people who live in the Capitol follow very absurd fashion trends. This is not the case for Cinna. The first time he is seen in the book, he is described as wearing a simple black shirt with matching pants. His one strange fashion choice is gold eyeliner, which brings out the gold flecks in his green eyes and which Katniss describes as attractive. Other than that, Cinna looks very normal, with close-cropped natural dark brown hair and slightly dark skin. {The Hunger Games Wiki}
Cinna is very different from the other inhabitants of the Capitol; he does not use surgery to alter his features, wears simple black clothes, and leaves his hair its natural dark brown color, close cropped. His only evidenced feature is a slight touch of gold eyeliner that brings out the gold flecks in his eyes. {Wikipedia}
It’s true that Cinna’s description is vague. Cinna could be absolutely any race. I felt the lack of description was purposeful. Cinna could be a hero that looked like anyone. I can’t fault anyone too much for thinking he might look like them, however…
‘
Really, fandom? You nearly make me want to revoke my love of this series with these comments! Especially those who pictured Cinna as “sweet and loving”–A statement that implies that Kravitz doesn’t look that way.
However, many fans get it
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Happy Happy Joy Joy. Frak the haters. I was worried they would white wash characters and I forgot about how Cinna looked.
It always irritates me that people seem to be upset at the sheer AUDACITY of folks being their favorite character and a minority in whatever book they read. Like they’ve been betrayed even though the author will specifically tell them that someone is black.
Thank you for doing the research to show how privileged these fans can be. Another example how characters can only be Black if they fit some stereotype.
I haven’t read the Hunger Games yet, (waiting on a copy from the library) but I’m pretty stoked that there are major characters who are black. I mean, am I the only white girl who thinks there aren’t enough black and brown people playing well-rounded characters in the movies? And for every character who isn’t directly described as black and is cast that way, I’m sure there are 10 black, Asian, hispanic, Native American, or whatever characters who were played by Caucasian actors in movies, so these commenters going “OMG so and so is black?WTF?” should get over themselves.
I didn’t think Cinna was black. For some reason I saw him as a flamboyant gay guy, but that’s just my imagination. I love Lenny so I’m happily surprised that he is Cinna! Rue always was black in my mind and that girl’s pic is too cutesy for words. I can’t wait to see her jumping from tree to tree. Where are the Latino’s in this film? When I read the book I recall peeps being described as tan with black hair. Achem, achem… I know they died Jen Lawrences hair but come on. We need love too Hollywood. Good blog Moxie. You looking young for 28!
I want to point out, that being flamboyant and gay in no way determines your race, meaning your belief in his sexuality and nature does not exclude him from being black and that, that was a very silly thing to say.
LOL excellent point, Nevyn. I also have a bit of an objection to him being characterized as gay–I haven’t finished Catching Fire or started on Mockingjay, so I honestly don’t know the answer to this: is Cinna gay??? I don’t recall him being characterized as such in THG. Seriously. If he isn’t revealed as being gay in the entire series, why do people assume he’s gay? Because he’s a stylist? Hello…just because you’re into fashion as a career doesn’t necessarily mean you’re gay. Right?
I’m kind of amazed anyone ever thought of Cinna as flamboyant. I don’t remember him ever acting that way in the book. Compared to most of the Capital people he’s pretty subdued. Just because he is 1. a designer and 2. comes up with very eye-catching designs doesn’t mean he’s flamboyant as a person (or gay, for that matter).
Thank you for that, I agree completely (see my post above). Just because Cinna is in fashion seems to mean he MUST be gay to these people…and he wasn’t flamboyant, either.
Yeah, Cinna was definitely not flamboyant. The author made a point of describing him as very subdued. He was juxtaposed against the other stylists who WERE flamboyant. Also, Rue was clearly black. Collins also made a point of mentioning her dark skin SEVERAL times. It’s interesting that this conversation is taking place because I honestly thought to myself as I read the book, “I wonder how many white readers are gonna miss the fact that she’s black? I wonder if the director and casting crew will miss it, as well?” Well, I’m glad Suzanne Collins wrote the screenplay, as well, and had creative control. Yes, people, there are black people in the future, and they actually play pivotal roles just like they do in the present. Geez.
Also, as far as Cinna being portrayed as gay, I think that actually helps the story. For those who don’t know (or never thought about it), Katniss is presented to Cinna completely nude. She’s being waxed and plucked for the interviews. Cinna comes in, and is indifferent to her nudity, and Katniss isn’t terribly disturbed by his presence, so I think the film audience would be more sympathic with this if he were gay. But no, being a stylist doesn’t mean someone is automatically gay, and being black certainly doesn’t confirm heterosexuality. What rock are some of you living under? Please step out, and come into the light.
Some of those comments are absolutely sickening, especially the ones claiming to be ‘grossed out’.
I can maybe see how some people were confused about Rue, since her skin colour is mentioned perhaps twice while it’s mentioned over and over how much she reminds Katniss of Prim. I took that to mean age/demeanour though.
All the people who pictured the characters as white seem to have totally glossed over the descriptions.
I just want to thank you for posting this blog entry. It echoes so many thoughts that have been ringing through my head lately.
After reading the Hunger Games books and then hitting the net to see peoples’ thoughts, I was (and continue to be) horrified by all of the racist reactions that people have had to seeing Rue and Cinna cast by black actors.
I’ll be fair… I can see why they’d assume Cinna to be white, so I won’t touch that one. But Rue? Why wasn’t it clear to everyone that she was of a dark-skinned race? Even after being pointed to the evidence by the more enlightened readers, they just REFUSE to accept it. It’s like, “No… Rue is OURS and you can’t have her! She’s not black, she’s just white with a TAN!!”
Really people? Yet there’s no outcry about Thresh (big, hulking and scary) being black.
And even with casting Amandla, they only gave in a ‘little’ to the book’s description. If I recall, she’s supposed to be just as dark as Thresh, but heaven forbid they give a movie role to an ACTUAL black girl.
Reading the comments on some forums by some younger readers really scares me. They’re a lot more blunt with their racist jabs.
It’s a painful reminder (both for me and my two young black daughters) of how unaccepted we continue to be in this day and age. I fear for my girls.
Amandla Stenberg IS an “ACTUAL black girl.” Her being mixed and brown does not mean she’s not actually black.
Hi Maria,
Allow me to rephrase because I don’t want my point to be lost on a technicality.
First… Yes – Amandla is an actual black girl, and a beautiful and talented one. I’m not trying to take that away from her and I apologize for any misunderstanding.
What I was attempting to convey in my post was the fact that black girls of a ‘darker’ hue (i.e. Chocolate Deluxe Kelly Rowland) are OFTEN pushed to the side in many forms of media (Print Ads, Commercials, Movies, TV shows…).
The tendency amongst many casting directors (when faced with a black girl or ethnic quota) is to instead cast black girls that have a lighter hue as well as long good hair (I say ‘good hair’ in a tongue-in-cheek Chris Rock sort of way).
This is a painful reality that gets lost on a lot of people who don’t have to experience this on a first-hand basis.
I bring this up only because I’m sure that Suzanne Collins was also clear when she made Katniss realize that both Rue and Thresh were of the same ‘dark-skinned complection’. Thresh was big and intimidating. He got cast as a very dark-skinned guy. And this is okay. The psychology behind all of this is very real and very depressing.
So while the internet is ablaze with people criticizing the appearance of a ‘black’ Rue, the problem still remains where the message being sent to black women is, “Okay, fine, we’ll cast a black girl… but only one that’s visually appealing to us. Darkies, step to the side please! Lighter is better.”
If someone is to google “Hunger Games Maddison Pettis”, they’ll see the scores of people in various message boards or blog comments who perhaps picked up on the fact that Rue wasn’t white, but at the same time could only go as far as to accept a girl with Maddison’s shade of brown.
Anyway, not meaning to ramble on and on… just wanted to bring up another thorn.
Hi, I followed your blog from Jezebel. Great post! I just linked it on my blog. I also have a post about Katniss being a WOC, although I don’t know if I am as articulate as you! I wish I had been keeping a collection of fan reactions as you do, but several of the comments I have received speak for themselves.
It’s amazing to me how some people hate that there’s two black characters in Hunger Games. I know it can be shocking to see our favorite books turned into movies but to hate the actors that are picked based solely on race is just hateful and ridiculous. A movie that’s based on a book can almost never meet readers’ expectations because we have already met the characters in our minds. Thank you for writing this post.
I wonder if these same haters realize that Rue and Thresh’ families will ALSO be black in the Catching Fire movie? There may be a whole district mostly made of black people (Seeder, in Mockingjay, is described as looking as though could be from the Seam.).
When I first read The Hunger Games, I wondered if the Seam inhabitants were meant to be Melungeon. I couldn’t join in the idea that casting Jennifer Lawrence was white-washing (unless she’d played the part with her light hair and complexion), as Katniss’ sister and mother are describe as blue-eyed blondes. But it never struck me that Rue was anything but black.
I pictured Cinna as looking like a thin, brown-haired, biracial Caucasian/Latino co-worker of mine (though with slightly more eye makeup!), but when Lenny Kravitz was cast, my reaction was “oh, that works.” I was more surprised by Josh Hutcherson as Peeta; I was picturing a younger-looking boy with a lighter shade of blond hair. Josh is more of a man than I pictured Peeta, at least in the first book.
Spot-on post. I have only read THG once thus far (I’ve been busy! Sorry!), but I got right away that Rue was black. All these people that comment about not knowing she is black must have missed all the details given about Rue’s family in Catching Fire! The actress cast as Rue in the movie adaptation looks pretty much exactly as I envisioned her. The writer describes her as looking like Prim based on her build and demeanor–not her skin tone or hair color, which they would have gotten if they had READ PROPERLY. Reading comprehension, anyone? Oh, sorry, I forgot I’m talking to teenagers, for the most part, modern teens who have absolutely no eye for detail, thanks to popular culture’s obsession with brevity and text speak, no attention span whatsoever.
Cinna, meh, he could have been Latino by that description, or Southeast Asian…or Caucasian with a darker complexion. He’s pretty versatile. I admit, I didn’t picture him as black, but I also think that Lenny Kravitz, who is bi-racial if I’m not mistaken, is just fine in the role. No, I didn’t picture Cinna as black, but it’s not because I’m white or had an expectation of him being white due to white privilege, not at all. It’s because the story didn’t specify his race more definitely, as it did with many others. Peeta’s and Gale’s descriptions are very specific, as is Katniss, although with her darker skin and dark hair she could be of Italian, Middle Eastern, or many other racial descents.
But whatever, the whole “ew, he’s black” thing really pissed me off. Seriously, WTF? I had such high hopes for the newer generation being smarter and more accepting than the one before, but apparently stupidity and ignorance are still rampant…and very well publicized, thanks to Facebook. Thanks for putting this up, although I’m disappointed to know how badly we fail. (insert Picard facepalm)
I think you’re a little unfair when you assume all the people responding to the casting are teens. There are plenty of intelligent teens who read closely and adore the series for their literary merit and not to just because it’s the “in” book series. You also seem to assume that all Facebook users are teens, which just isn’t true.
I do, however, agree that it is absolutely disgusting for people to be upset about black actors being cast as characters they had pictured as white.
Sorry if I gave the impression that all Facebook users are teens…I have no idea how I did that, but I do know that, especially considering I am 35 and use FB, too! After re-reading my post, there is not a single place where I even imply that FB is only used by teens. I just say that FB helps spread the stupidity of racism and ignorance…as the writer of this post documents.
And sorry, but the majority of these comments listed above obviously come from teens. It’s just apparent–check out the avatars next to practically every commenter the author copy/pasted. They’re almost all young! That’s what I’m talking about, the ones who are listed, who are all, again, obviously young people in their teenage years. To quote myself: “I’m talking to teenagers, for the most part.” FOR THE MOST PART means that I am not discounting the chance that there are some teens who don’t fall in that category. Unfortunately, in this case, the negatives are the “most part.”
Again, I’m 35 and I read YA books. I read anything, as long as it’s well written and entertaining. I also read Twilight…but I also read high literary fiction and classics. As I said, I read everything.
Don’t be so sensitive. If you’re a teenager and well-spoken, not racist and have good reading comprehension, I wasn’t speaking to you. Like I tell my kids when I’m making blanket statements about someone doing something rather dumb: if you’re not guilty, I’m not talking to you, so just carry on. If you are such a teen (and if so, I say this without any patronization or condescension intended whatsoever), good for you. I hope more young people like yourself speak out for reading comprehension and against racism.
I think when Rue was described as looking “Like Prim” thats why people assumed the white/blonde girl over her actual description, because that was brought up more [imo]. Honestly, I forgot how she was described until my friend reminded me of the description.
I think the little girl playing her is PERFECT. SHe’s sweet, innocent and DAMN just the picture was enough to make me realize they made the perfect choice.
I was a little unsure of Cinnas casting at first, since I’ve never seen Lenny Kravitz in anything, but after seeing the trailer I can assure you he’s going to be GREAT.
Back in my younger days, in the early days of the Potter series before the movies, I remember first reading about Cho Chang and thinking she was white with blonde hair. How I figured that one, I have no idea. (To be fair, I was quite young, from suburbia, and went to a Catholic school where the only minority at the time was the one black guy in my class. I was rather sheltered.) Anyways… The day I first saw Cho in the movies or a preview or whatever, I just remember thinking “She’s Asian?” My mom laughed when she found out. Even so, I wasn’t upset that she didn’t look like I picture her. I was just surprised and found it amusing how completely off I was.
So, to make a long story short, sometimes people can miss the really obvious details that clue us into what a character might look like. That doesn’t mean, however, that the people who are suggesting that, because the person isn’t white like they assumed, they won’t be good are in the right. They’re just being ignorant.
Thank you for this! The reaction to Rue really surprises me because she is obviously black. I happened to picture “my” Cinna as Nelsan Ellis so I guess I’m not the only one who pictured him as a black guy. I can’t believe it’s a big deal. Are black folks really less sympathetic than white folks?
Oh man, Nelsan Ellis would have been great too!
I will admit that I was surprised when I saw they cast a black girl as Rue, but that’s more due to my poor reading comprehension than anything else. I completely missed the fact that she was described as having dark skin, and all of the comparisons to Prim made me think she, well, looked like Prim.
To be fair, I couldn’t have told you what Cinna or Gale looked like, either. Or Haymitch. The only physical characteristics I remember are the often-repeated ones, like Peeta being blonde or Katniss having a long braid. Stuff that’s only mentioned once, like Rue’s skin color or Cinna’s eye-glitter, just didn’t stick because I was devouring the books too fast. I do that sometimes.
Once it was pointed out to me, though, I smacked my forehead for missing that detail, and then moved on. That is what these people should do. They missed it, being upset at the movie poster for something THEY missed is just dumb. And then to be outright angry that a character is black? Really? That doesn’t even make sense.
Excuse me, but I’m just going to punch society in the face for a moment.
barf. sometimes I hate people.
Thanks for taking the time to make this post. I think (hope?) that you compiling this will help some enlighten some readers.
It is completely shocking that anyone would have this kind of reaction. So sobering to see that as a society we still have so far to go.
While Rue was clearly a POC in the book, I would just add one thing about Cinna.
I imagined Cinna as being Latino, like another poster above, but would not have any problem with him being black. What I do have a problem with, and other people may, as well is that he is played by Lenny Kravitz who has a certain public persona and style and demeanor which I find jarring and quite over the top, whereas Cinna was, as I remember him, defined by a kind of quiet, modest dignity.
Probably, though, most of these reactions have nothing to do with Lenny Kravitz and everything to do with blackness.
If you think he is “over the top” then you have only seen him in concert or in his videos, which are, at times, over the top, although all you have to do is listen to more than his rocking-out songs to see he has another side. Apart from his music, check out interviews and such with him: in person, he is a very calm, quiet, soft-spoken, and introspective person. He’s obviously also very intelligent and is known as being one of the nicest people in music and Hollywood. An artist’s stage presence is quite different from his actual personality and persona.
Wow. Are people really serious? How can you read the books and not pick up that there were two black characters? I was slightly mad that Katniss wasn’t played by a latino actress, but I guess if that had happened people would have been like “Katniss isn’t Latino” “I just thought she had a good tan from running in the sun”. I need these idiots to have a seat in a football statium.
I always knew Rue was black, and I think the actress will do an outstanding job.
I have no problem whatsoever with Cinna being black, it’s more that I don’t see Lenny Kravitz playing him how I imagine. He’s my favourite character in the book, and I always imagined him as someone like Matt Smoth – quiet and calm, sometimes going completely over the top. To be fair, I haven’t seen anything Lenny has done, so I am reserving judgement until I do.
Ok, so I knew about the actors playing Cinna and Rue before the character posters came out and I was excited for rue, but I cursed the casting directors for casting Lenny Kravitz as Cinna, as I always pictured him Asian with close cut hair and glasses.
HOWEVER! The second I saw Cinna’s character picture, I immediately slapped myself for doubting the casting directors choice. I really do think Cinna is perfect!
Just goes to show you, just because you are a fan of sci-fi, it doesn’t stop people from acting like a douche bag. Nor improve your grammar.
I’ve read (and enjoyed) these books but have no deeply rooted, hard-core opinions about casting. That said, {super shallow comment follows} I may just see the movie BECAUSE Lenny Kravitz is Cinna. He is just beautiful!
Because, I read in such a hurry I actually pictured Prim very differently, she was dark haired tiny and very similar, to how I pictured Prim (not white and blonde, I imagined Prim like a smaller Katniss). When a friend told me she was black I told her that I didn’t picture her as black, and she brought out the book and showed me the passage where it said it. In my defense, I rush through reading and hardly ever think about the race of the characters. (My Katniss was completely different from Jennifer.)
Ironically, Cinna is EXACTLY like I imagined him. EXACTLY! Maybe a little more stubbly less beardy, but its like they took him out of my mind and put him in the movie. :O
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So sad about these reactions. I realize people are in love with the series and it’s great when a writer creates such strong characters that you want to picture them that way forever in your mind but COME ON! I mean Jesus! If these people fit the roles then they fit the damn roles. And it’s great that Collins and the casting directors made a point to have a diverse cast. If you look at the casting of tributes they made a point to have those that look different and it’s key to reflecting a realistic society. So sad to read these comments. Especially (she’s black??? just saying what everyone was thinking.) Perhaps NOT everyone was thinking this. Augh.
Thanks for posting this it’s an important topic to note that race is often still a factor in today’s day and age and especially when it comes to things that are popular.
You know, when I read The Hunger Games for the first time, I remember thinking that if they ever made a movie of this, I’d love to see Lenny Kravitz as Cinna. He’s an absolutely brilliant choice, both looks-wise and personality-wise, for me. I don’t understand all the hating going on about this one.
And the fact that Rue is black-Why is that such a big deal?! A cute little girl in the arena can’t be black? Whatever, ignorant Facebookers. Get over it. I’m glad that Hollywood stuck to the book with Rue, because she’ll be that much more real.
It’s going to be a brilliant movie.
I, too, think Lenny is a great choice. Some people who have talked about him being “over the top” I think haven’t ever really paid Lenny Kravitz much attention. His demeanor, when you see him in an interview or whatever, is very calm, thoughtful, and well-spoken. He’s an extremely intelligent and kind person, lots of charity work, etc. In short, he does indeed have the “Cinna personality” already.
That is exactly how I pictured Rue *o* Cinna doesn’t though.. I thought he was that guy with with the cool beard in the official trailer lol. It doesn’t really matter what he looks like though. As long as he can portray the Cinna we all know and love I don’t care who plays him!
Man..I have been extremely confused by all of the people who are shocked that Rue is black. Rue and Thresh are very clearly described as being black in the book. Reading comprehension, much?? While Cinna’s description is more ambiguous, I think it was made pretty obvious that he isn’t white. When I first read the books, I pictured him as multiracial. Both of these castings are spot on.
I’ve gotta say, I didn’t read Cinna as black–I read him as Asian. In fact, I pictured him as B.D. Wong, specifically. Why? I think it’s because I interpreted Cinna as gay, but not super flamboyant (unlike his over-the-top assistants), and B.D. Wong just seemed to fit the description in my mind.
However, Lenny Kravitz also works for me–and he seems a better casting choice than Peeta or Gale, neither of whom are thrilling actors.
But these Facebook comments? Yeah, I don’t even know where to start. Lessons in reading comprehension and critical race theory, maybe?
wait until they get a look at the new Perry white??? Oh no!
I’ll be the nail that sticks out for a moment and give the benefit of the doubt to those people.
First of all, most of these people’s comments were not meant in any way to be harmful towards the colored community, or any minority for that matter.
Now, I have two arguments to point out here. People unconsciously change the descriptions in stories. They may have initially imagined him to be of dark skin, but as the story went on, that image could have been morphed as Cinna’s personality bloomed. He grew to be a kind and warm person, a caregiver and protector of Katniss. “You’re saying black people can’t be this kind of a person – you stereotypical bitch!” Calm your defensive minds and let me finish! No, I am NOT implying that the colored community cannot portray such traits. What am I trying to point out is that everyone’s experiences and perceptions are never the same. People who changed the color of his skin in their minds were probably bestowing upon him the characteristics of those caregivers in their lives that display similar characteristics. And who would this be for a light skinned person? Another light skinned person. Unless specific persons feel particularly close to the colored community, it is likely that white readers gave Cinna white skin in their minds. Why do people do this? Because familiarity is associated with comfort, and that’s what Cinna is! For just a moment, try to picture any caregiver in your life, but with the opposite color of skin. You don’t necessarily believe that the opposing skin color is any sort of evil, you’re simply not as familiar and at ease with the opposite, because you’re not particularly exposed to this kind of relationship with them. This isn’t something that the mind does voluntarily – most people who read it weren’t like “HE’S BLACK! NOOOO! IT CANNOT BE!!!” as they imagined it. It just HAPPENS, without any control. It’s very likely that, were the situation to be reversed, colored readers would imagine him as colored, whether he was described as such or not.
Now for the case of Rue, the same idea can be applied, but for different reasons. Katniss. She keeps mentioning how Rue is so much like Prim. Prim Prim Prim Prim Prim. With Katniss’s little concern for physical appearances, we get barely any description of most of the characters in the book. Now if she mentioned Rue’s physical traits once or twice, how long would the image last in comparison to Katniss’s constant reminders that she’s just like Prim? Hell, the only reason Katniss doesn’t kill Rue is because she reminds her of Prim! Katniss casts her eternal love for and desire to protect Prim onto Rue. But you’re seriously going to say that it’s because readers are racial that they portrayed Rue to be of white skin and blonde hair? They’re describing Prim, for goodness’ sake, because Katniss repeatedly said that Rue is just like Prim! Yes, Rue IS Prim, and if you can’t see that, then more people should be included in that list of readers who “lack reading comprehension,” yourself included.
This isn’t about racism, this is about human nature! It’s not controllable! Blaming someone’s unconscious mind for doing these kinds of things is like blaming a person for being a person!
It’s been a very long time since black people were called “colored”. Please marinate on that before you decide to use such insensitive language in your comments.
I still hear “people of color” being used by, well, people of color. Is that the preferred term (as opposed to “colored” I mean)?
…no. No to this entire response.
Thank you. I wondered about this response…I actually had a moment where I asked myself, “What, did ‘colored’ get ‘taken back’ or something?” Then I woke up. I thought about responding at first, but I hesitated, allowing my Wonder Bread complexion and latent white-girl-raised-in-the-South-guilt take hold of me, thinking I had nothing relevant to add, that surely someone else would say it better than I could, and in much fewer words…which they did. I actually thought about kinda defending the poor girl–she’s Latina, surely, surely she meant no harm? But, as I said in my original reply to this awesome post, this is a teenager. Go to the link embedded in her name, she’s a high school student, with a whoooole lotta growing up to do. Still shaking my head. Seriously. Colored? Are they really using that one again??? Where the holy hells did she hear that? Has she been watching retro movies or something?
Um… the problem is the way the people are reacting to the casting itself, not that they pictured them as white. Personally, I did picture Cinna as white, but I didn’t even think about it when Lenny Kravitz was cast. And I always saw Rue as black. You can’t defend people who use phrases like “ew” when they see a black person cast as one of these characters.
Also, as a general defense of teens, please don’t be a perpetrator of prejudice yourselves by pointing this out and blaming these people because they are teens. That might have something to do with it, but not all teens are like this. It’s just wrong to think so.
Tahleen…defensive much?? This is the second time you’ve over-reacted to the whole teen reference, the first being to my response above. The problem is that the majority of teens DO act like this, unfortunately. These kinds of reactions are typical of immature people with not-so-great reading comprehension…hence, frequently these are young people. Sorry, it’s true. I can only guess that you are a young person yourself. I did check and you’re in college, but I’d also guess you’re out of your teens. As the mother of a girl on the cusp of being a teenager, I want desperately to help keep her from some of the stupid things teens do, but I know it’s impossible. Everyone has to learn on their own. I’m not calling these kids stupid, nor you, but I am calling their reactions stupid, and don’t understand why you are obsessed with making excuses for immaturity on the part of a bunch of (mostly) teenagers who are demonstrating some of the key characteristics of being a teenager. LOOK AT THE AVATARS. 99% of them are below age 20. Case closed. They need to be called out for being ignorant and racist and (maybe this is silly when compared to ignorance and racism) for having piss-poor reading comprehension.
Also, the problem IS that people are reacting to the casting of these characters as BLACK, like they are in the books, but the silly non-reading (mostly teen) OMG-ers didn’t get that fact.
Ely,
Wow.
Even if the comments are not intended to be harmful, they are still harmful. Don’t tell someone that has been offended by something that they shouldn’t be offended.
While I agree that gut reactions from the unconscious mind are not controllable, the way that you express them ARE. That’s what separates a mature individual that thinks before they post from some of the commenters on this thread. As a Black man there are definitely times where I mentally assume the race of someone or another that I hear reported about
Don’t use the term “colored” ever again, unless you have traveled here from the past in a racist TARDIS.
I wont comment on the whole colored thing because that’s just unacceptable, and I hope you understand that noe. What I will comment on is the idea that people cannot bestow caregiver to a person of opposite color. That is ridiculously FALSE!!!! Perhaps you cannot give that description because maybe you have not met many PEOPLE OF COLOR and thus only believe the stereotype that blacks are rude and abrasive or whatever, but I, as an African American/Black/Person of Color can assign caregiver to anyone regardless of color if they are such a person. Maybe it’s because I have met many people who are both white, black, latina, asian, etc. that are sweet, nice, caring, respectful, etc. Nonetheless, you cannot blame the way you feel on some involuntary mindless thing that goes on in your head. You can only blame it on not having any exposure to people who are unlike you in order to form the correct understanding. That was a matter that you should have been exposed to well before now. Being ignorant of caregivers of a different race is not an excuse.
While it’s true, in some of these cases, that it’s just a visceral reaction, that is in no way an excuse. One of the qualifying factors of humanity, in my opinion, is being able to acknowledge a skewed view and adapting your mentality; especially when it leads to, to the very same and bigoted conclusions that we see in those facebook comments.
So, I’ll admit, you do have a good point, but it’s not a valid justification for what most of those comments portray. Nor should we be attempting to justify it.
Dear Ely:
Did you just say “Colored?” You know that that is the part where your argument is lost, right?
has anyone noticed that most of these comments are being made by what look like a bunch of teenage girls? and i feel like they’re just following the new trend that is this series. just like there is going to be an increase in teen girl interest in The Millennium series when The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo comes out, if it hasn’t already started.
But yeah i think it’s disappointing that all these people are reacting this way.
No kidding…
I can’t believe anyone mistook Rue for being white! It is obvious in the book that she reminds Katniss of Prim BECAUSE SHE IS A LITTLE TINY GIRL not because of how she looks!!! Katniss sees her as a person, as a little girl in need of help, not as her race. FFS
On the other hand, I doubted (still do) Lenny Kravitz playing Cinna because of him being Lenny Kravitz, not because of him being black. I just imagined Cinna being……more like Prince perhaps.
The people saying Katniss is Latina surprise me though because the books make it clear that Katniss’s district is the former Appalachia, and Appalachia is predominantly white.
I don’t think she’s Latina–she could be any race, honestly. But a Latina actress could play Katniss, with her tan skin, dark hair, and dark eyes. I’m not sure why they chose a girl with blonde hair and had her dye her hair dark and get a tan..but the girl playing Katniss looks great, so ultimately it’s a matter of the resulting character jiving with how the book describes her…which Jennifer ultimately does.
And Lenny Kravitz is an inspired choice, I think. He and Prince could actually pass for cousins, once Lenny sheds the dreads and puts on some purple!
I also think that the campaign for a Katniss that was either Latina or some other ethnicity was a bit aggressive.
Both Mrs. Everdeen and Prim were blonde haired and blue eyed. And I’m assuming that Katniss and Prim share the same father. Now, I’m no geneticist, but the idea of Katniss being of a non-white ethnicity had a low probability in my opinion because I think that some more ethnic features would’ve been passed on to Prim.
Genetics are a funny thing.
My mother has this bump of cartilage on the back her ear. Her father had the same. Her male cousins have it too, but I do not.
It is very possible and not at all unusual for biracial children (which is how I pictured Katniss) to have very different skin tones. This is even common in mono-racial children!
Don’t know why I can’t reply to Roxie’s comment…Yes, genetics are very funny. My mother is half Native American, very dark in every way, and tiny. My dad was completely of European descent, tall, slender, pale, and red-haired w green eyes. I somehow came out tall, with a big-boned frame, very pale, w blonde hair and brown eyes. I look nothing like my parents, except for inheriting my mom’s very dark eyes. My husband is part NA, too, but it’s not obvious at all: light complexion (but he can tan, whereas I…well, I just crisp and burn and turn white again…), blue eyes, light brown hair. Out of our kids, they all ended up as tall, blonde, blue-eyed, pale skin…except for ONE, who came out with my mom’s dark looks and tiny build. And, ironically, he’s one of my set of twins. He and his twin brother look nothing alike. My husband almost asked for a paternity test! I have seen bi-racial parents have children that looked nothing like their siblings or their parents, too. It’s a genetic craps-shoot, or perhaps like Forrest Gump’s box o’chocolates: you never know what you’re gonna get.
I never really had much of a racial expectation as to Katniss. My saying she could be played by an actress of Latino or other “dark” non-white descent was based solely on her description in the books. Jennifer ended up fitting the bill and satisfying SC and the casting directors…who am I to complain?
Someone might accuse me of “white guilt” but I get more upset when someone is cast as white when the character is not white. I can’t understand the upset when it’s the other way around, like with the casting of Heimdall in the Thor movie. Open your minds, people!
To answer your question upthread, “People of Color” is the preferred term.
When it came to the movie Thor and Heimdall’s character… I can easily say that, as a black man, I would have had absolutely no qualms about ALL of those Norse gods being white. I would not have participated in a campaign demanding the inclusion of a black Norse god or an asian Norse god.
As far as the movie goes, however, all I would’ve looked for (for the sake of diversity) would’ve been some diversified speaking roles ON EARTH. And I’m talking about useful speaking roles. I watched “The Dilemma” the other day and at the end of the movie I had to ask myself what the point of Queen Latifah’s character was in the movie. Absolutely useless.
Saw your fabulous post on Racialicious so I came to visit you here. Just wanted to say Kudos!, because you have succinctly covered an important topic. Many of the FB commenters were young (as the books are marketed to teens) but that does not excuse their racist comments or plain old rudeness. They failed to learn the main lesson of the Hunger Games, which is “We are all in this world together and need each other to survive. We are not enemies”. Therefore, they should not be considered true fans.
The sad fact is that racism is still prevalent and Hollywood continues to promote it in many ways, but when they actually take positive steps, the criticism begins. It is a vicious circle. I am looking forward to these films almost as much as I waited for the Harry Potter films and we all know how they screwed poor Dean Thomas. Yet, I have seen very few posts about that (actually -none). I looked forward to him getting more than 2 dumb lines, then they wrote him out of DH7/8. I said that was racist when I saw DH and even my teen son could see my point. Poor Dean.
Final comment, I didn’t picture Cinna as so dang sexy until they picked Lenny and I was so glad they did because he will be awesome! Why are people questioning his acting? He is the son of an actress and a director. He has acted before. He is confident, suave and fashionable which I thought were Cinna’s main qualities. What’s the prob?
Unfortunately, most of those “fans” will never even realize how ignorant they showed themselves to be and may never learn to read a book correctly.
Thanks, Thanks, Thanks for this post!!! It’s crazy how people feel about this. Like there’s no way black people can still be alive once the world has “ended.” Apparently we go back to before slavery and all blacks are still in Africa and only whites are here. (exclude Native American’s completely” This is a mess! I love Rue and Cinna and thresh and am sooo happy they stayed true to the books by using the correct people. I will admit that I had no idea how Cinna looked but when they cast lenny, I was excited because maybe now my dad will be happy to go to the movies with me cuz he loves lenny. Its just a complete mess!
As an African American, I am so happy that we are not excluded from books like these, and that Hollywood recognizes that we need to be included. In regards to these tweets, I recommend that these so called “fans” go back and read the books. If you were a real fan, you would have read the book more than once, and recognized the descriptions of every character. I just cant believe this!
So, here’s an interesting question…
Should authors care about how their readers visualize the characters that they’ve written into their stories?
And if the answer is yes, should expectations be placed on the authors to do a better job at describing characters so that fallouts like what we’re now seeing across the internet (Rue, Cinna, Katniss, etc…) don’t have to happen as often?
My argument to many people is that Suzanne Collins would not have described someone as having satiny dark brown skin if she wanted the reader to envision someone as being anything but black. Many people on the internet have said things like, “Well black people aren’t the only ones with dark brown skin you know!” Okay, true, but as a writer it is her job to make the most out of her words when the objective is verbal illustration. Personally, I think the people who responded in that way were just looking for an “anything-but-black Rue”.
I came across another blog where the blogger said that Suzanne Collins (SC) failed in her effort to identify certain people in her book as being minorities. It kinda made me sad to read that blog because up until that point, I wanted to personally thank SC (I still do) for being one of the few authors of YA fiction to assign a pivotal role to a black/ethnic character without making her stereotypical in a negative way.
But I understood the point that the blogger was trying to make. Unless you’re extremely specific, certain readers will do everything in their power to remove that character’s ethnic features if it suits them to do so. That being said, the blogger said that when describing Rue, SC should’ve cut back on her comparisons to blonde-haired/blue-eyed Prim because it confused the readers with lesser comprehension skills. Same for Katniss and her “olive-skin” and “dark hair”. The new question becomes… If SC had made it unmistakably clear that Rue was black… would Rue still have been as loved and admonished as she was before the movie casting took place?
I’m not saying that I agree or disagree, but I thought it was an interesting point.
Before I even finish reading what looks to be a great post …
PLEASE, PLEASE adjust the first Facebook screenshot so that the death of a major character in the third book is not revealed by a commenter! I’m lucky enough that I’ve finished the trilogy and wasn’t spoiled, but that comment will be a MAJOR SPOILER for many reading this post.
Argh!
I can see very easily why people would mistake Rue for a small white girl-even though she WAS described accurately only once…but throughout a good portion of the book Katniss relates Rue to her little sister Prim, which I believe is where the confusion happened… since the readers were also trying to model Rue after Prim. I have to say myself that I went through reading the books imagining her as a little white girl too, but I’m not all high strung about the casting…
And Cinna I’m fine with as long as he is more flamboyant… as I also imagined him as a gay guy, but-why does everyone mean that they assumed he’s white when they say “I imagined him gay :/”
There are black gays too!
I’m sorry, but if you’re going to source The Hunger Games for descriptions of characters, PLEASE USE THE BOOK, not a fan made wiki or Wikipedia.
I admit to being one of the idiots that simply read the book too fast to notice that Rue is supposed to be black, but once I went back and saw how wrong I was, I simply changed how I imagined her. I can’t even remember what she looked like when I thought she was white. I love Amandla’s casting, she’s perfect.
However, since I seriously don’t remember Cinna’s skin being mentioned in the last few times I re-read the book, I went back to my Kindle version and looked at Katniss’ first description of Cinna and nowhere in that first encounter does she describe his skin color. So yes, he could be cast any way they wanted, really, but you shouldn’t be quoting from a wiki.
Now, although I’m still not sold on Lenny’s Cinna, my issues with his casting have nothing to do with his skin color and everything to do with the fact that he never auditioned. I continue to hate how Gary Ross just saw him in something else and assumed he was perfect for the role. (and maybe he’s also just too hot and muscular for my liking)
Tamir, these are quotes from the book that are used on the Wiki.
I listened to these on audiobook, so it would be a little harder for me quote from it. I do not have a Kindle/Nook/nor any other e-reader.
Also, if you check my post again I clearly state that Cinna’s description is rather ambiguous.
Having seen Lenny Kravitz in “Precious” I am very confident he will do very well in the role of Cinna.
Wow. There is an amazing volume of offensive comments in those screen-capped Facebook comments, with regard to race AND sexuality. “He better act gay”? Are you kidding me?
Pingback: Yes, There Are Black People in Your Hunger Games: The Strange Case of Rue and Cinna « Mirror, Mirror On The Wall
OK since it’s come up in other comments, I want to bring it up in a separate one, since I know I’m not alone in this, regarding the casting of Cinna. Regardless of whether he’s black, white, biracial, Martian, or a Cinnabon, WHY does everyone seem to automatically assume Cinna’s gay?
The above comments are really offensive in some ways: he’s gotta be a flamboyant, flaming, fairy, apparently, because he is a stylist? C’mon people. Sure, Queer Eye for the Straight Guy didn’t do much to tame that belief, but we all know that just because a man is in the arts doesn’t mean he’s gay. Nothing but love to my gay friends who are in the arts–I have many, many, many. But I also have gay friends who are accountants, lawyers, and one who is a frakking crab fisherman in Alaska–is there any “manlier” job around??
I am just irritated by the (mostly) little girlies on FB and such that say stupid crap like, “He’d better act gay!”
Cinna in THG was one of the LEAST “flamboyant” characters; he is described as being very low-key in terms of his personal dress (except for the eyeliner, and that’s pretty darn reserved for people in the Capitol!), and his choices for Katniss and Peeta in terms of their costumes were pretty reserved too (except for the flaming dress, which was just appropriate enough). He’s soft-spoken, has serious common sense, patient, and kind. Never, ever, once does it mention anything that would lead you as a reader to go, “Oh my GAWD he is gay!” He doesn’t “prance” or “mince” or act “prissy”, which many of the Capitol people do, regardless of sexual orientation, which isn’t mentioned anywhere in the book to my remembrance. Never. I went back and scanned through it again, and I believe I’m right on this.
Prejudice in any form is ugly. I have 3 boys, all of whom are, thus far, to my eyes, straight. My daughter…well, hubby actually occasionally jokes he hopes she turns out to be a lesbian, because he knows the evil that is embodied in teenage boys. However, if that changes, my husband and I will accept it. We don’t allow racism or prejudice against anyone but stupid people in our home. And I sure won’t automatically assume one of my sons is gay because he’s more inclined to the arts than lumberjacking–or my daughter, either, for that matter.
Anyone else agree with me on this?
You are absolutely correct! Thanks for adding to the discussion.
Thankyou. Thankyouvurrymuch. (said in best bad Elvis voice)
I enjoy the message that this article is sending, but I did want to say a few thing.
“Rue is pretty clearly described as African-American…”
I did notice in the books that Rue is described as having dark skin, but I actually imagined her looking much like my younger sister. We are Filipino and have fairly dark sin. That leads me into another comment I wanted to make.
Someone saying that they did not envision Cinna looking like Lenny Kravitz is not necessarily racist. Many of those comments were offensive and insulting, yes. But someone creating an image in their head cannot be helped. I actually had a version of an uncle of mine as Cinna in my head, and he looks nothing like Lenny.
That being said, I am not judging any of the cast until I see how they perform in the film. I cannot know if Cinna, Rue, Katniss, Peta, or any other character was casted well until I see if they can ACT like the characters that I love.
There are more skin tones, cultures, ethnicities, and heritages that just “black” and “white”. Don’t assume that EVERYONE in those comments was a white person being racists against black people.
But as I said, I really did enjoy this article.
Of course not and I’m glad you brought up that point. That being said, it’s an overriding trend where it seems to be White against People of Color, even Europeans who are simply of darker skin, and that’s unfortunate.
Personally, I would have preferred that they had attempted to adhere more to the book in terms of character modeling. Simply because Hollywood seems to be adhering to this mentality that having People of Color in cinema some how alienates the audience, and maybe that’s true, but that’s more a byproduct of that mentality and not the cause of it.
And I’m more astounded by the fact that while good actors, I don’t see any justification that they couldn’t have found just as competent actors that successfully or at least in some way minimally adhered to the descriptions.
It was unfortunate to see Avatar: The Last Airbender miss it’s chance, and now this. It highlights a disturbing trend within our culture while acknowledging and pushing a continued ignorance of a younger generation into assuming this is acceptable.
My first reaction to Cinna’s character poster was “Well, he’s hot. I’d do him”. Which in my book makes the guy perfect for the role.
For me, the issue that I have with the movie — the ideology behind the industry that drove casting — is something that goes way, way farther than The Hunger Games. I didn’t see The Last Airbender for the same reason; I get upset when people fancast Magnus Bane and Jem Carstairs as white actors for the same reason; I get upset with the lack of genuine plotlines for Mercedes on Glee for the same reason; I get annoyed with many, MANY super popular American sitcoms for the same reason. It’s not about being upset that the cast doesn’t look how I imagined them — honestly, there has never been a cast that looked how I pictured the book characters and I doubt there ever will be, and that is TOTALLY fine. I really don’t care that Thresh is shorter than I’d pictured or that Foxface’s face isn’t all that foxlike. Whatever. There have never been any actors who look like what I see in my head when I read, so that’s not part of it for me.
For me, the problem is an ongoing institutional problem in the United States, and it’s one that I think is very overtly a part of the focus of The Hunger Games, so I notice it more and it bothers me more with this particular movie than, say, in How I Met Your Mother or the tokenism in the PJO movie or the exploitation of Native American culture in Twilight.
I don’t, genuinely don’t, have a specific vendetta against the THG film. I have a belief and a conviction and an issue with something that I view as a deep-rooted social inequality in our/my country, and I’m heartbroken that the movie version of a book series that I love so much is a victim of it. I feel the same way for a LOT of movies/TV shows, but since THG is my biggest fandom right now, that’s the one I end up speaking out the most for.
I don’t think that there have been any preconceived ill intentions on behalf of ANYONE involved in the THG film — not Gary, not Lionsgate’s execs, not Debra, no one. It’s just an ingrained problem in Hollywood.
However, for me, since the message of the Hunger Games is so connected to the idea of misrepresentation in the media and the disparity of race and class, I wish that they had dug deeper into their source material and at least auditioned a full spectrum of actors for ALL of the roles. I, personally, feel like a HUGELY important part of the series’ resonance, or at least what resonates with me in the series, is missing just from the foundations of the film… and that’s just an unfortunate reflection of the fact that we, really, are already Panem at heart. And I think the purpose behind the Hunger Games books is to hold up that mirror and show us what we need to change as a society. I think that’s the purpose of all dystopian work.
I wanted to see this film used as a catalyst for discussion and not succumbing to those ingrained problems in US media and open the doors to some amazing unknowns or lesser-used actors and actresses for whom parts just aren’t written very often in this country. I think the best phrase I’ve seen someone use to explain how I feel about the approach to casting THG is “a missed opportunity.” I think Hollywood as a whole missed an opportunity with this work to showcase talent that doesn’t often get a voice in the mainstream here — and, in missing that opportunity, missed the chance to show some closed-minded people out there that actors of color have just as much tremendous talent and drive and success as white actors.
That said, I think Jennifer, and Josh, and Liam, and everyone involved in the film, are amazing and put forth SO much dedication. I think they will act the scenes gorgeously and with a lot of nuance and care and I definitely don’t think anyone approached the project with neglect or were flippant about its value. You can absolutely see in every actor in the franchise so far that they LOVE their characters and cherish this film, and that’s so, so great to see in a YA adaptation — especially in the post-Potter Film world.
I think that the way they visually showed D12 as sort of “stuck in the past” and moved the Capitol into a kind of chrome-monorail City of the Future is EXACTLY how I had pictured the difference between D12 and the Capitol, and that was awesome. I think the soundtrack, or what we’ve heard of it, is really beautiful and fits the tone wonderfully. I don’t think they possibly could have found a more perfect Rue or Prim or Effie or Pres. Snow.
But I don’t go out of my way to support projects that could have taken the risk of changing some people’s minds, and didn’t. Especially when that’s the crux of the work. I wanted this movie to be a film on fire.
In other words: why not focus more on the HUGE issue that they cast Katniss, Gale, and Haymitch as WHITE actors, rather than the fact that fans were surprised to see Lenny Kravitz as Cinna?
You’re absolutely right about Rue, I thought exactly the same thing about all those ridiculous comments, but Cinna? In the book it NEVER says that he has dark skin. I checked. Also, it says that he has green eyes. Have you seen many people with dark skin and green eyes? I’m not saying it’s impossible, but far more often people with dark skin have dark eyes as well, brown at least. Like Lenny. Green is quite unusual so it’s logical for people to imagine him as white. Also, one more thing. In the book Cinna described as “young man” while Lenny Kravitz is 47! He’ll be portraying Cinna as middle-aged at best.
So – I’m also one of the people who imagined Cinna differently, and I have read the book carefully and build my image based 100% on his description. And it’s not about him being black, but about many factors that make people dislike this casting. To be honest, after watching the trailer I was able to imagine him as Cinna and I think he will do a nice job, but in any case – he’s almost nothing like canon description.
I covered Cinna’s description. I actually quoted from the book. Please take some time to re-read that section.
Lenny Kravitz does not look 47. He looks at LEAST 10 years younger. Considering that movies are visual medium, casting someone older will help portray the maturity and thoughtfulness that Cinna posses as a mentor to Katniss.
You quoted THG Wiki and Wikipedia and NOT the actual book. I read that section carefully and I re-read it again, and I’ve also re-read the book more than once. Like I said, in the book it’s never mentioned that Cinna has dark skin.
I understand the reasons behind the casting decision but it doesn’t make Lenny look any more canon (canon = like book’s description) which was my point. Also, it was way more interesting to see a young person in his twenties portray this maturity thoughtfulness via his acting skills alone, without using his age as an advantage. It would’ve made Cinna a lot more interesting, as interesting as he should be.
What? Do you not understand genetics. Green and blue eyes are recessive and can occur in any race. Have you seen Vanessa Williams? She has natural green eyes. Green eyes are not even that common in white people. Green eyes are a genetic mutation hence NOT THAT COMMON ANYWHERE. So, that is a pretty weak argument.
Second, she never said in her article that Cinna has dark skin. She said the description is vague and he could be ANY RACE. She cross-references the wiki sites with the quotes from the book but if you read this article as many times as you supposedly read the books.. you wouldn’t be submitting this comment.
So, I don’t understand your need to be so right in this regard. Obviously, Lenny was picked as Cinna for a reason and the author would have made clear opposition to his casting.
@JP Fairfield
Okay, you’re right about green eyes then. I haven’t seen Vanessa Williams, this is the first time I hear this name and I thank you for an example – this was just what I needed. But I honestly think that it’s more common for people with a dark skin (african american) to have dark or brown eyes. I think it’s a trend – hope this wording is fine with you.
Still. Author of this article is wondering about harsh fan reaction to movie!Cinna having dark skin while a) he really could be any race so it’s not that surprising that people imagined him differently and b) he really is older in the movie than he’s described in the book. So my point is that a) it’s actually understandable that not all fans are happy with the casting and it’s not racist for a lot of them, it’s just a matter of imagining him differently and b) movie!Cinna is not exactly like canon description (vague as it is) and you can’t argue with that.
Also, I never said that _in her article_ author says that Cinna has dark skin, but the THG Wiki decription which is quoted here says that so I wanted to point it out. I don’t need to be right about this, just expressing my opinion. But I’m kind of tired of people thinking that everyone who doesn’t like movie!Cinna’s skin color is racist while people can just don’t like this image cause it’s not matching the image in their heads. And yeah, Cinna is one of my favorite characters and I had a rough time accepting Lenny in this role (until the trailer came out) so maybe that’s the reason I’m still commenting here.
Look, I’m not going to even bother with the “dark skin people have this or that” cause I don’t feel like going deeper into genetics… So let’s stop on that point.
Her article is not saying that anyone who doesn’t like the casting of Cinna is racist. It’s not all or nothing. She is referring to that subset of fans that have issues with casting because of their RACE.
It’s one thing to not be happy with the casting but it’s another to say along the lines “I thought this character is supposed to be nice and calm..” It begs to question why a black man can’t be “nice” and “calm”. You can have your opinion but when someone basically say people of color can’t exhibit certain positive characteristics that brings in issues of racism, prejudice, and privilege.
@JP Fairfield
Hey, you can stop at any point you like. My comment was directed towards the author of this article, it wasn’t an invitation to an open discussion with whoever feels like it. I’ve explained my point of view enough already so I won’t repeat it again. I have no idea why you decided to reply to my comments so much – need to be so right in this regard?
This article is about people who had a problem with this casting. Some of the comments cited in the original post seem fine to me (like “I didn’t picture Cinna like this”) and I understand very well how someone can be upset because they pictured Cinna differently. And _not_ be racist.
I don’t know why are you telling this to me. I was talking about different subset of fans who are just imagined Cinna differently.
And by the way, if this article basically shows that there are some inadequate fans in THG fandom… Isn’t obvious by definition? Any fandom has such fans.
Enverz, I don’t have much to say about you or Fairfield’s argument, but I’d like to point out that if you post something publicly on the internet, you ARE inviting everyone, everywhere, to comment.. that’s what saying something publicly is.
No, I have no need to be “right” but I have a need to express my opinion on a public forum. I continued replying to your comments because you replied to me hence a “discussion”. Funny how that works…
Ok, that has nothing to do with the article then… This is about people who have issue with the casting because of race. It should be a given we are not referring to those people so why even make the comment.
The main reason I replied because I feel you are in some way giving excuses for some of the comments cited in the original post. As I stated before there is a difference between having an issue based on just the casting of a particular actor and having an issue that actor is cast because you attribute certain characteristics of the character to certain racial groups. That’s a very big difference to me.
So, why even comment if the article is just referring to the subset that has issues due to the race? What is the point?
Also, “let’s stop on this point” in no way means you are forcing me to do anything.. it means I’m not discussing that particular point because it’s no longer relevant to the discussion or the argument will remain circular and go no where. In other words, let’s drop that point.
@magicgingerbug
When I post something publicly there’s a possibility that anyone will reply, anyone _can_ do it and I’m aware of that. But it’s not like I’m _inviting_ anyone. Maybe you meant the same thing.
It’s just that this phrasing “So let’s stop on that point”… You’d think that I’m forcing anyone to reply.
Yes, that’s exactly what I meant… perhaps with a side of “so stop getting your panties in a twist over it”.
Well, Enverz, most people have brown eyes. It’s hardly surprising when most dark-skinned people also have brown eyes.
However, when you consider that most black people in the US have white ancestors, it’s not really THAT unusual to see somebody with darker skin and blue, gray, or green eyes (other than that those are unusual eye colors to begin with). I know people with that exact appearance who live on my own block.
That goes double or triple when you consider such things as fashion contact lenses. If we have them, I’m sure the Capitol still has them as well.
@Uly
I’m glad that you decided to reply to my comment. I live outside of the US so I’ve never met or seen people with such appearance (or maybe payed enough attention) therefore my comment. Now I’ll be wiser. And people in my country very often have blue or grey or green eyes, not brown.
Nice idea about lenses. Never occurred to me – it was much easier to imagine Cinna as a white guy with a green eyes and brown hair and now it’s done. I already have this image in my head.
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Also pretty sad: so many people of color were involved in these comments as well! Internalized racism is tragic.
Late on this post but it is obvious that people are “reading” but not comprehending. They probably didn’t focus on the descriptions as much as they should have and imagined characters to look how they thought they should looked; like them. These people also showed their complete disregard of people of color and how a perfect world would be nothing but pale white people with blonde hair.
Wow. Why am I still seeing “people of colour” on the replies? It is offensive so dont use it. Is it so hard to say BLACK?
Anyway THG trilogy was one of the only things I have read ( I dont like to read novels) so I didnt have a solid idea of how any of the characters looked. I thought of rue being either black or native and sometimes a mix of both since I have a friend who is black and native. I am perfectly happy with her casting and I kind of think shes TOO adorable haha.
Thresh is not as strong silent type as I had imagined though haha.
As for cinna, I didnt know what to think. He was difficult to imagine. White with a tan I guess. Of course I never read many discriptions in books before and I was slightly ignorant but when I saw him in the trailer I was amused and thought it was a very interesting choice. I smiled xD
I think he will do great as Cinna.
The facebook comments are revolting. I got pretty upset. Being biracial myself, it struck a nerve. How can people be so blantantly racist ? I would give them all a piece of my mind if i could.
“People of Color” is referring to more than just black… It’s a term used to describe racial/ethnic groups (i.e. black, Hispanic, Indian, native american, etc) who have skin pigmentation that is different from “white”. Pretty much a catch-all for non-white groups.
I was actually very surprised to see Rue having such light skin. I know that her skin was described as “satiny”, but honestly I imaged her as being very, very dark skinned, though still petite. However, I think the girl they’ve chosen is quite fitting in retrospect. Cinna was an enigma to me in terms of looks while I read, but I was on the second book when the character movie posters came out, and I can say that I began to imagine Lenny Kravitz as Cinna from them on. However, I was a bit bothered that Effie didn’t have her signature pink curls, but I got over it. Finally, I imaged Katniss as appearing more Creole than anything else, but I think that her ethnicity was so hazy that while I would have liked her to be more olive-skinned with less of a baby face, I have to say that Jennifer Lawrence does a nice job of keeping Katniss’s facial expressions very neutral, as I imagined as well, so no complaints here.
I imagined Rue darker too. That was just me though.
It wasn’t just you. She was described as having mahogany skinned which is a bit of a darker brown than the actress portraying Rue.
That should have read “mahogany skin” not skinned.
I so enjoy this little bit. People get so wrapped up that they forget the imagination of the original. We’re diving into someone else’s world, their head, their imagination! Rue was always described as African American as well as Thresh. That’s how I always pictured them! Cinna, while I didn’t picture him to look exactly like that, it was definitely similar. If I didn’t picture him dark then I do now. This ridiculousness of people forcing imagination onto others is silly. Can’t we all just be a little more open minded. For those of you who skipped over the character description reread and try again. Thank you!
Can I just make a point?
You say that Cinna has had no Capitol alterations. It also says he has green eyes.
What black person has natural GREEN eyes?
Sincerely, confused.
Tyra Banks, Terrence Howard, Michael Ealy and countless other black people have green eyes. Eye color differences aren’t exclusive to white people.
If you read the comments, you’ll notice the mention of Vanessa Williams.
Also, if you watch Grey’s Anatomy there is Jesse Williams (Dr. Jackson Avery)
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WTH ?!?! People can be SO RUDE. I absolutely loved who they picked for ALL the characters. And, I know that in a lot of movies and shows that are based on books and stuff, they pick people based on the fact that they can BE the character. Like in Vampire Diaries. Elena is supposed to be Caucasian with blonde hair and blue eyes. When the actress has olive skin and brown eyes. I guess it’s a bummer they couldn’t keep to the book but she can TOTALLY play Elena. That’s all that matters to me. It’s not like the movie is going to be an EXACT replica of the book. Deal with it. Sorry for the rant. Its just people can be just….ugh.
While I understand how it’s a bit racist assuming that Rue is white when in the books she’s clearly described as dark skinned, I don’t see how it’s racist thinking that Cinna was. I agree that some of the comments were a tad racist, but I don’t get how it’s racist assuming Cinna is white.
I mean, how likely is it that a person in North America is black with green eyes around the Rocky Mountains? Seriously, look up the statistics, and do a bit of research on green eyes.
Plus, if they were going to cast a black guy as Cinna, could they not have at least found one with green (or even blue) eyes? I mean, I like Lenny a lot, but despite his acting ability, I can’t see him as Cinna. He should have been younger with way lighter eyes.
I can accept him as the movie Cinna, but he’s never going to be the Cinna I picture while reading the books, and it has nothing to do with racism. -shrugs-
I’d also like to point out that none of the people mentioned above that I know of have actually green eyes. They’re all blue or what’s typically called hazel. Real green eyes = rare. Even among people who are European in origin… which is where green eyes are more commonly found. Green eyes are obviously not impossible for a black person to have, but typically the genes for brown eyes beat out the green eyed genes. They’re recessive and brown eyes are dominant. So, being an already rare eye colour, it’s significantly more rare in people who descend from any people who genetically should have brown eyes (not just black).
So, being that real green eyes are so rare, wouldn’t it be safe to assume one of two things:
1. That the character in the book has hazel/blue eyes and not real green eyes
or
2. That any actor they looked for would have hazel/blue eyes, so no matter who they cast the eye color would have been wrong anyway?
Would there have been this much of an issue if the actor they cast to play Cinna had been white with blue/hazel eyes? No. Would we still be dealing with comments about this 3 months after the initial post? No.
Not to mention the fact that the author of the article has said in the original article as well as in comments that Cinna’s race was never really explained in the book. She even states that she understands why folks would be confused about he casting of Lenny as Cinna because of this. Obviously people aren’t reading what she’s writing.
That’s not even taking to account that there has been proof that all major human genes can be traced to the sub-Saharan African population. This would include all the major genes for eye color. So it’s perfectly possible for someone with ancestors that were all African to have blue, green or violet eyes.
I don’t even know the point of @Martha’s argument. Honesty, genetics are a crap shot most of the time. Just because it seems more common in one country does not make it nearly impossible in another one.
@NaniCoolJ:
Lenny has dark brown eyes and black hair. Wouldn’t it make sense for them to at least cast someone with hazel or blue eyes? Or even more sense to cast someone with dark brown hair and hazel or blue eyes? Or put Lenny in contact lenses?
Since when did black people typically have “natural dark brown hair” anyway? I’d call it black 99% of the time.
I read what she wrote. The fact is, I can’t think of a single black person with both natural dark BROWN hair, and green or hazel eyes.
Don’t get me wrong, Lenny is pretty attractive, but there are black guys with way greener eyes than his that are actors (the aforementioned, Jesse Williams, in fact. I’m sure if he wasn’t available, someone else with equally non-dark brown eyes could have stepped in.).
@JP Fairfield: Green eyes are a mutation, and so is being white. So, white people with green eyes are mutant mutants.
My point isn’t that it’s completely impossible for a black person to have green eyes, it’s that it’s less likely, because it seems more common in like I said, already mutated people. Also, the amount of white people in North America is higher the amount of black people. Especially in the rocky mountain region, which is where Cinna would have been born.
…………….
Here’s a question to both of you:
Would either of you be complaining about other people complaining if he was black haired, brown eyed white boy, and people took issue with his casting? Probably not.
Let’s just say for argument’s sake, they cast Ben Barnes instead.
I like the guy, but I’d still be really unimpressed with him being cast as Cinna. How about… Zachary Quinto? Yeah, still have a problem with that. Ryan Gosling? Too blonde, too blue eyed. Johnny Depp? Mmmm… still no. Do you want me to go on and tell you exactly how many white actors I know of that I’d complain about? I can do that. I can also throw in Asian, and Hispanic actors for comparison’s sake. I can give Kal Penn a honourably mentioned no as well. Aidan Turner too. He can have a big fat no. Same with Rupert Grint, Aaron Yoo, Alex Pettyfer, and Matt Damon (surprise, I think Aaron and Alex are incredibly attractive! STILL NO.).
There are still people complaining about how Daniel Radcliffe was wrong as Harry Potter because he didn’t have green eyes. You want to tell me how many years THAT’S been?
P.S. I’d be livid if Rue was white. I would almost not want to bother watching the movie.
Here’s a question to both of you:
Would either of you be complaining about other people complaining if he was black haired, brown eyed white boy, and people took issue with his casting? Probably not.
Yes, if things were completely different, our reactions, my reaction would be completely different.
This sort of question only works if you think/believe that things are some how equal–which they are NOT! That is the problem within itself.
You’re asking me to disregard the kernel of the issue here or pretend its something that it is not. I can’t do that.
Since when did black people typically have “natural dark brown hair” anyway? I’d call it black 99% of the time.
I read what she wrote. The fact is, I can’t think of a single black person with both natural dark BROWN hair, and green or hazel eyes.
Most black people I know have dark brown hair. It’s actually rare to have jet black hair. I myself have brown hair with strands of red and strands of very dark brown.
If you can’t think of a single black person meeting that description, you must not have read the previous comments. I don’t have to look farther than my own family to find people matching that description and you can’t think of one single famous person or bother to read the previous comments?
Also, this insistence on the actual genetic make up of black people currently living in/near the Rocky Mountains is ridiculous. Please stop. I mean, if you can’t think of one black person with brown hair and hazel eyes, how can possibly believe you know what you’re talking about when it comes to the genetic make up of black ppl living in/around the Rocky Mountains? I mean, THIS TAKES PLACE IN THE FUTURE!
The issue isn’t that I’m upset that Lenny was cast nor that I would be upset if a white person had been cast–I wouldn’t. As I wrote, the description is vague as far as skin color is concerned. It’s about people being so incredibly upset that a black person was cast. Please, let’s stick to that.
I live around the Rockies and have for my whole life, and the fact is, as it is right now, with it not being the future, the amount of people who aren’t pathetically white around here is honestly not a lot. With that being the only frame of reference we have nowadays, I’d say him being white is a fair assumption.
I read the previous comments about the actors (which realistically is so not a realistic portrayal of any population. Celebrities don’t look like most normal people, and half of the time they’re famous because of their cool looking genetic attributes making them fancy eye-candy, and therefore more fun to cast. I mean, look at Kate Bosworth and Mila Kunis. You can’t tell me having heterochromia with one blue eye one brown eye is a common occurrence, and yet there are some celebrities with it.). I’d personally say that the majority of black people have hair that surpasses dark brown, and goes into the brown-black range. That’s not really dark brown any more. Not to me, and not to anyone I personally know that I’ve asked. Dark brown is typically what I’d call brunette. Plus Lenny is the last guy I’d cast if I wanted a green eyed person. Like I said in my comment, Jesse Williams would have been a WAY better pick if they wanted a black guy. Both of them are attractive, I just don’t see how Lenny makes sense with his dark brown eyes. It’s not that black people don’t have brown tinted hair, it’s that it’s so dark, it’s not just dark brown any more. In worse light, it definitely looks black.
I’m not saying anything about the genetic make-up of black people around the Rockies, I’m saying that there aren’t a lot of people that aren’t completely and utterly white here, so within the population of people who are mostly white, the amount of black people goes down, and the amount of black people with lighter coloured eyes are fewer as well.
Seriously, come up to Banff or Calgary, and tell me how many people you see are black. Not a lot. The Rockies are pretty much whitey land. I did look up the statistics before bothering posting any of this, and along the Rockies, the percentage of white people is ridiculously if not comically high. I did the math from ethnicity demographics, and the population percentage of black people (even mixed race) in the area is about 1.8%, whereas the white (including mixed race, again) population is roughly 84.8% of the whole population (the statistics are a bit fuzzy in Canada, so I used the percentage of white people in all of Canada instead of just British Columbia and Alberta, so the numbers are probably actually higher than the number I got by a few percentage points.). So it’s not that black people can’t have anything other than dark brown eyes, it’s the fact that there are so few in that region in the first place, and the amount with lighter eyes is less than 1.8% of the population. A small percentage of an already small percentage of 1.8% is… unlikely at best.
My point is, despite the description being vague, the chance of Cinna not being white is still insanely low. I’d bet even in the future, the amount of black people in the area will jump to 3-5% at best. Why? Because a lot of places in the Rockies are either too cold to bother moving to unless you’re nuts or a hardcore snow sport fan, or not very interesting, hence the current population density. Seriously, if you look at the population density of North America, basically the spot with the least is the Rocky Mountains, and the plains. There’s a reason for that. Despite being mountainous, the Rockies are painfully plain. I really doubt there will ever be much population growth around here unless people suddenly find something more entertaining around here other than staying indoors and being bored out of their minds.
Um, retire from post commenting now.
TL;DR.